The Memorabilia
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You would seem to suggest (he answered) that the spirit of beautiful
and brave manhood has taken wings and left our city;[21] as, for
instance, when will Athenians, like the Lacedaemonians, reverence old
age--the Athenian, who takes his own father as a starting-point for
the contempt he pours upon grey hairs? When will he pay as strict an
attention to the body, who is not content with neglecting a good
habit,[22] but laughs to scorn those who are careful in this matter?
When shall we Athenians so obey our magistrates--we who take a pride,
as it were, in despising authority? When, once more, shall we be
united as a people--we who, instead of combining to promote common
interests, delight in blackening each other's characters,[23] envying
one another more than we envy all the world besides; and--which is our
worst failing--who, in private and public intercourse alike, are torn
by dissension and are caught in a maze of litigation, and prefer to
make capital out of our neighbour's difficulties rather than to render
natural assistance? To make our conduct consistent, indeed, we treat
our national interests no better than if they were the concerns of
some foreign state; we make them bones of contention to wrangle over,
and rejoice in nothing so much as in possessing means and ability to
indulge these tastes. From this hotbed is engendered in the state a
spirit of blind folly[24] and cowardice, and in the hearts of the
citizens spreads a tangle of hatred and mutual hostility which, as I
often shudder to think, will some day cause some disaster to befall
the state greater than it can bear.[25]
[21] Or, "is far enough away from Athens."
[22] See below, III. xii. 5; "Pol. Ath." i. 13; "Rev." iv. 52.
[23] Or, "to deal despitefully with one another.
[24] Reading {ateria}. See L. Dindorf ad loc., Ox. ed. lxii. Al.
{apeiria}, a want of skill, or {ataxia}, disorderliness. Cf. "Pol.
Ath." i. 5.
[25] Possibly the author is thinking of the events of 406, 405 B.C.
(see "Hell." I. vii. and II.), and history may repeat itself.
Do not (replied Socrates), do not, I pray you, permit yourself to
believe that Athenians are smitten with so incurable a depravity. Do
you not observe their discipline in all naval matters? Look at their
prompt and orderly obedience to the superintendents at the gymnastic
contests,[26] their quite unrivalled subservience to their teachers in
the training of our choruses.
[26] Epistatoi, i.e. stewards and training-masters.
Yes (he answered), there's the wonder of it; to think that all those
good people should so obey their leaders, but that our hoplites and
our cavalry, who may be supposed to rank before the rest of the
citizens in excellence of manhood,[27] should be so entirely
unamenable to discipline.
[27] {kalokagathia}.
Then Socrates: Well, but the council which sits on Areopagos is
composed of citizens of approved[28] character, is it not?
[28] Technically, they must have passed the {dokimasia}. And for the
"Aeropagos" see Grote, "H. G." v. 498; Aristot. "Pol." ii. 12;
"Ath. Pol." 4. 4, where see Dr. Sandys' note, p. 18.
Certainly (he answered).
Soc. Then can you name any similar body, judicial or executive, trying
cases or transacting other business with greater honour, stricter
legality, higher dignity, or more impartial justice?
No, I have no fault to find on that score (he answered).
Soc. Then we ought not to despair as though all sense of orderliness
and good discipline had died out of our countrymen.
Still (he answered), if it is not to harp upon one string, I maintain
that in military service, where, if anywhere, sobreity and temperance,
orderliness and good discipline are needed, none of these essentials
receives any attention.
May it not perhaps be (asked Socrates) that in this department they
are officered by those who have the least knowledge?[29] Do you not
notice, to take the case of harp-players, choric performers, dancers,
and the like, that no one would ever dream of leading if he lacked the
requisite knowledge? and the same holds of wrestlers or pancratiasts.
[29] {episteme}. See below, III. ix. 10.
Moreover, while in these cases any one in command can tell you where
he got the elementary knowledge of what he presides over, most
generals are amateurs and improvisers.[30] I do not at all suppose
that you are one of that sort. I believe you could give as clear an
account of your schooling in strategy as you could in the matter of
wrestling. No doubt you have got at first hand many of your father's
"rules for generalship," which you carefully preserve, besides having
collected many others from every quarter whence it was possible to
pick up any knowledge which would be of use to a future general.
Again, I feel sure you are deeply concerned to escape even unconscious
ignorance of anything which will be serviceable to you in so high an
office; and if you detect in yourself any ignorance, you turn to those
who have knowledge in these matters (sparing neither gifts nor
gratitude) to supplement your ignorance by their knowledge and to
secure their help.
[30] Cf. "Pol. Lac." xiii. 5.
To which Pericles: I am not so blind, Socrates, as to imagine you say
these words under the idea that I am truly so careful in these
matters; but rather your object is to teach me that the would-be
general must make such things his care. I admit in any case all you
say.
Socrates proceeded: Has it ever caught your observation, Pericles,
that a high mountain barrier stretches like a bulwark in front of our
country down towards Boeotia--cleft, moreover, by narrow and
precipitous passes, the only avenues into the heart of Attica, which
lies engirdled by a ring of natural fortresses?[31]
[31] The mountains are Cithaeron and Parnes N., and Cerata N.W.
Per. Certainly I have.
Soc. Well, and have you ever heard tell of the Mysians and Pisidians
living within the territory of the great king,[32] who, inside their
mountain fortresses, lightly armed, are able to rush down and inflict
much injury on the king's territory by their raids, while preserving
their own freedom?
[32] For this illustration see "Anab." III. ii. 23; cf. "Econ." iv.
18, where Socrates ({XS}) refers to Cyrus's expedition and death.
Per. Yes, the circumstance is not new to me.
And do you not think (added Socrates) that a corps of young able-
bodied Athenians, accoutred with lighter arms,[33] and holding our
natural mountain rampart in possession, would prove at once a thorn in
the enemy's side offensively, whilst defensively they would form a
splendid bulwark to protect the country?
[33] Cf. the reforms of Iphicrates.
To which Pericles: I think, Socrates, these would be all useful
measures, decidedly.
If, then (replied Socrates), these suggestions meet your approbation,
try, O best of men, to realise them--if you can carry out a portion of
them, it will be an honour to yourself and a blessing to the state;
while, if you fail in any point, there will be no damage done to the
city nor discredit to yourself.
VI
Glaucon,[1] the son of Ariston, had conceived such an ardour to gain
the headship of the state that nothing could hinder him but he must
deliver a course of public speeches,[2] though he had not yet reached
the age of twenty. His friends and relatives tried in vain to stop him
making himself ridiculous and being dragged down from the bema.[3]
Socrates, who took a kindly interest in the youth for the sake of
Charmides[4] the son of Glaucon, and of Plato, alone succeeded in
restraining him. It happened thus. He fell in with him, and first of
all, to get him to listen, detained him by some such remarks as the
following:[5]
[1] Glaucon, Plato's brother. Grote, "Plato," i. 508.
[2] "Harangue the People."
[3] See Plat. "Protag." 319 C: "And if some person offers to give them
advice who is not supposed by them to have any skill in the art
[sc. of politics], even though he be good-looking, and rich, and
noble, they will not listen to him, but laugh at him, and hoot
him, until he is either clamoured down and retires of himself; or
if he persists, he is dragged away or put out by the constables at
the command of the prytanes" (Jowett). Cf. Aristoph. "Knights,"
665, {kath eilkon auton oi prutaneis kai toxotai}.
[4] For Charmides (maternal uncle of Plato and Glaucon, cousin of
Critias) see ch. vii. below; Plato the philosopher, Glaucon's
brother, see Cobet, "Pros. Xen." p. 28.
[5] Or, "and in the first instance addressing him in such terms he
could not choose but hear, detained him." See above, II. vi. 11.
Socrates applies his own theory.
Ah, Glaucon (he exclaimed), so you have determined to become prime
minister?[6]
[6] {prostateuein}.
Glauc. Yes, Socrates, I have.
Soc. And what a noble aim! if aught human ever deserved to be called
noble; since if you succeed in your design, it follows, as the night
the day, you will be able not only to gratify your every wish, but you
will be in a position to benefit your friends, you will raise up your
father's house, you will exalt your fatherland, you will become a name
thrice famous in the city first, and next in Hellas, and lastly even
among barbarians perhaps, like Themistocles; but be it here or be it
there, wherever you be, you will be the observed of all beholders.[7]
[7] "The centre of attraction--the cynosure of neighbouring eyes."
The heart of Glaucon swelled with pride as he drank in the words, and
gladly he stayed to listen.
Presently Socrates proceeded: Then this is clear, Glaucon, is it not?
that you must needs benefit the city, since you desire to reap her
honours?
Glauc. Undoubtedly.
Then, by all that is sacred (Socrates continued), do not keep us in
the dark, but tell us in what way do you propose first to benefit the
state? what is your starting-point?[8] When Glaucon remained with
sealed lips, as if he were now for the first time debating what this
starting-point should be, Socrates continued: I presume, if you wished
to improve a friend's estate, you would endeavour to do so by adding
to its wealth, would you not? So here, maybe, you will try to add to
the wealth of the state?
[8] Or, "tell us what your starting-point will be in the path of
benefaction."
Most decidedly (he answered).
Soc. And we may take it the state will grow wealthier in proportion as
her revenues increase?
Glauc. That seems probable, at any rate.
Soc. Then would you kindly tell us from what sources the revenues of
the state are at present derived, and what is their present magnitude?
No doubt you have gone carefully into the question, so that if any of
these are failing you may make up the deficit, or if neglected for any
reason, make some new provision.[9]
[9] Or, "or if others have dropped out or been negligently overlooked,
you may replace them."
Glauc. Nay, to speak the truth, these are matters I have not
thoroughly gone into.
Never mind (he said) if you have omitted the point; but you might
oblige us by running through the items or heads of expenditure.
Obviously you propose to remove all those which are superfluous?
Glauc. Well, no. Upon my word I have not had time to look into that
side of the matter either as yet.
Soc. Then we will postpone for the present the problem of making the
state wealthier; obviously without knowing the outgoings and the
incomings it would be impossible to deal with the matter seriously.
But, Socrates (Glaucon remarked), it is possible to enrich the state
out of the pockets of her enemies!
Yes, to be sure, considerably (answered Socrates), in the event of
getting the better of them; but in the event of being worsted, it is
also possible to lose what we have got.
A true observation (he replied).
And therefore (proceeded Socrates), before he makes up his mind with
what enemy to go to war, a statesman should know the relative powers
of his own city and the adversary's, so that, in case the superiority
be on his own side, he may throw the weight of his advice into the
scale of undertaking war; but if the opposite he may plead in favour
of exercising caution.
You are right (he answered).
Soc. Then would you for our benefit enumerate the land and naval
forces first of Athens and then of our opponents?
Glauc. Pardon me. I could not tell you them off-hand at a moment's
notice.
Or (added Socrates), if you have got the figures on paper, you might
produce them. I cannot tell how anxious I am to hear your statement.
Glauc. No, I assure you, I have not got them even on paper yet.
Soc. Well then, we will defer tending advice on the topic of peace or
war, in a maiden speech at any rate.[10] I can understand that, owing
to the magnitude of the questions, in these early days of your
ministry you have not yet fully examined them. But come, I am sure
that you have studied the defences of the country, at all events, and
you know exactly how many forts and outposts are serviceable[11] and
how many are not; you can tell us which garrisons are strong enough
and which defective; and you are prepared to throw in the weight of
your advice in favour of increasing the serviceable outposts and
sweeping away those that are superfluous?
[10] See "Econ." xi. 1.
[11] Or, "advantageously situated." See the author's own tract on
"Revenues."
Glauc. Yes, sweep them all away, that's my advice; for any good that
is likely to come of them! Defences indeed! so maintained that the
property of the rural districts is simply pilfered.
But suppose you sweep away the outposts (he asked), may not something
worse, think you, be the consequence? will not sheer plundering be
free to any ruffian who likes? . . . But may I ask is this judgment
the result of personal inspection? have you gone yourself and examined
the defences? or how do you know that they are all maintained as you
say?
Glauc. I conjecture that it is so.
Soc. Well then, until we have got beyond the region of conjecture
shall we defer giving advice on the matter? (It will be time enough
when we know the facts.)
Possibly it would be better to wait till then (replied Glaucon).
Soc. Then there are the mines,[12] but, of course, I am aware that you
have not visited them in person, so as to be able to say why they are
less productive than formerly.
[12] Again the author's tract on "Revenues" is a comment on the
matter.
Well, no; I have never been there myself (he answered).
Soc. No, Heaven help us! an unhealthy district by all accounts; so
that, when the moment for advice on that topic arrives, you will have
an excuse ready to hand.
I see you are making fun of me (Glaucon answered).
Soc. Well, but here is a point, I am sure, which you have not
neglected. No, you will have thoroughly gone into it, and you can tell
us. For how long a time could the corn supplies from the country
districts support the city? how much is requisite for a single year,
so that the city may not run short of this prime necessary, before you
are well aware; but on the contrary you with your full knowledge will
be in a position to give advice on so vital a question, to the aid or
may be the salvation of your country?
It is a colossal business this (Glaucon answered), if I am to be
obliged to give attention to all these details.
Soc. On the other hand, a man could not even manage his own house or
his estate well, without, in the first place, knowing what he
requires, and, in the second place, taking pains, item by item, to
supply his wants. But since this city consists of more than ten
thousand houses, and it is not easy to pay minute attention to so many
all at once, how is it you did not practise yourself by trying to
augment the resources of one at any rate of these--I mean your own
uncle's? The service would not be thrown away. Then if your strength
suffices in the single case you might take in hand a larger number;
but if you fail to relieve one, how could you possibly hope to succeed
with many? How absurd for a man, if he cannot carry half a
hundredweight, to attempt to carry a whole![13]
[13] Lit. "a single talent's weight . . . to carry two."
Glauc. Nay, for my part, I am willing enough to assist my uncle's
house, if my uncle would only be persuaded to listen to my advice.
Soc. Then, when you cannot persuade your uncle, do you imagine you
will be able to make the whole Athenian people, uncle and all, obey
you? Be careful, Glaucon (he added), lest in your thirst for glory and
high repute you come to the opposite. Do you not see how dangerous it
is for a man to speak or act beyond the range[14] of his knowledge? To
take the cases known to you of people whose conversation or conduct
clearly transcends these limits: should you say they gain more praise
or more blame on that account? Are they admired the rather or
despised? Or, again, consider those who do know what they say and what
they do; and you will find, I venture to say, that in every sort of
undertaking those who enjoy repute and admiration belong to the class
of those endowed with the highest knowledge; whilst conversely the
people of sinister reputation, the mean and the contemptible, emanate
from some depth of ignorance and dulness. If therefore what you thirst
for is repute and admiration as a statesman, try to make sure of one
accomplishment: in other words, the knowledge as far as in you lies of
what you wish to do.[15] If, indeed, with this to distinguish you from
the rest of the world you venture to concern yourself with state
affairs, it would not surprise me but that you might reach the goal of
your ambition easily.
[14] Or, "to talk of things which he does not know, or to meddle with
them."
[15] Or, "try as far as possible to achieve one thing, and that is to
know the business which you propose to carry out."
VII
Now Charmides,[1] the son of Glaucon, was, as Socrates observed, a man
of mark and influence: a much more powerful person in fact than the
mass of those devoted to politics at that date, but at the same time
he was a man who shrank from approaching the people or busying himself
with the concerns of the state. Accordingly Socrates addressed him
thus:
[1] See last chapter for his relationship to Glaucon (the younger) and
Plato; for a conception of his character, Plato's dialogue
"Charmides"; "Theag." 128 E; "Hell." II. iv. 19; "Symp." iv. 31;
Grote, "Plato," i. 480.
Tell me, Charmides, supposing some one competent to win a victory in
the arena and to receive a crown,[2] whereby he will gain honour
himself and make the land of his fathers more glorious in Hellas,[3]
were to refuse to enter the lists--what kind of person should you set
him down to be?
[2] In some conquest (e.g. of the Olympic games) where the prize is a
mere wreath.
[3] Cf. Pindar passim.
Clearly an effeminate and cowardly fellow (he answered).
Soc. And what if another man, who had it in him, by devotion to
affairs of state, to exalt his city and win honour himself thereby,
were to shrink and hesitate and hang back--would he too not reasonably
be regarded as a coward?
Possibly (he answered); but why do you address these questions to me?
Because (replied Socrates) I think that you, who have this power, do
hesitate to devote yourself to matters which, as being a citizen, if
for no other reason, you are bound to take part in.[4]
[4] Or add, "and cannot escape from."
Charm. And wherein have you detected in me this power, that you pass
so severe a sentence upon me?
Soc. I have detected it plainly enough in those gatherings[5] in which
you meet the politicians of the day, when, as I observe, each time
they consult you on any point you have always good advice to offer,
and when they make a blunder you lay your finger on the weak point
immediately.
[5] See above, I. v. 4; here possibly of political club conversation.
Charm. To discuss and reason in private is one thing, Socrates, to
battle in the throng of the assembly is another.
Soc. And yet a man who can count, counts every bit as well in a crowd
as when seated alone by himself; and it is the best performer on the
harp in private who carries off the palm of victory in public.
Charm. But do you not see that modesty and timidity are feelings
implanted in man's nature? and these are much more powerfully present
to us in a crowd than within the cirlce of our intimates.
Soc. Yes, but what I am bent on teaching you is that while you feel no
such bashfulness and timidity before the wisest and strongest of men,
you are ashamed of opening your lips in the midst of weaklings and
dullards.[6] Is it the fullers among them of whom you stand in awe, or
the cobblers, or the carpenters, or the coppersmiths, or the
merchants, or the farmers, or the hucksters of the market-place
exchanging their wares, and bethinking them how they are to buy this
thing cheap, and to sell the other dear--is it before these you are
ashamed, for these are the individual atoms out of which the Public
Assembly is composed?[7] And what is the difference, pray, between
your behaviour and that of a man who, being the superior of trained
athletes, quails before a set of amateurs? Is it not the case that you
who can argue so readily with the foremost statesmen in the city, some
of whom affect to look down upon you--you, with your vast superiority
over practised popular debaters--are no sooner confronted with a set
of folk who never in their lives gave politics a thought, and into
whose heads certainly it never entered to look down upon you--than you
are afraid to open your lips in mortal terror of being laughed at?
[6] Cf. Cic. "Tusc." v. 36, 104; Plat. "Gorg." 452 E, 454 B.
[7] Cf. Plat. "Protag." 319 C. See W. L. Newman, op. cit. i. 103.
Well, but you would admit (he answered) that sound argument does
frequently bring down the ridicule of the Popular Assembly.
Soc. Which is equally true of the others.[8] And that is just what
rouses my astonishment, that you who can cope so easily with these
lordly people (when guilty of ridicule) should persuade yourself that
you cannot stand up against a set of commoners.[9] My good fellow, do
not be ignorant of yourself![10] do not fall into that commonest of
errors--theirs who rush off to investigate the concerns of the rest of
the world, and have no time to turn and examine themselves. Yet that
is a duty which you must not in cowardly sort draw back from: rather
must you brace ourself to give good heed to your own self; and as to
public affairs, if by any manner of means they may be improved through
you, do not neglect them. Success in the sphere of politics means that
not only the mass of your fellow-citizens, but your personal friends
and you yourself last but not least, will profit by your action.
[8] {oi eteroi}, i.e. "the foremost statesmen" mentioned before. Al.
"the opposite party," the "Tories," if one may so say, of the
political clubs.
[9] Lit. "those . . . these."
[10] Ernesti aptly cf. Cic. "ad Quint." iii. 6. See below, III. ix. 6;
IV. ii. 24.
VIII
Once when Aristippus[1] set himself to subject Socrates to a cross-
examination, such as he had himself undergone at the hands of Socrates
on a former occasion,[2] Socrates, being minded to benefit those who
were with him, gave his answers less in the style of a debater
guarding against perversions of his argument, than of a man persuaded
of the supreme importance of right conduct.[3]
[1] For Aristippus see above, p. 38; for the connection, {boulomenos
tous sunontas ophelein}, between this and the preceeding chapter,
see above, Conspectus, p. xxvi.
[2] Possibly in reference to the conversation above. In reference to
the present dialogue see Grote, "Plato," I. xi. p. 380 foll.
[3] For {prattein ta deonta} cf. below, III. ix. 4, 11; Plat. "Charm."
164 B; but see J. J. Hartman, "An. Xen." p. 141.
Aristippus asked him "if he knew of anything good,"[4] intending in
case he assented and named any particular good thing, like food or
drink, or wealth, or health, or strength, or courage, to point out
that the thing named was sometimes bad. But he, knowing that if a
thing troubles us, we immediately want that which will put an end to
our trouble, answered precisely as it was best to do.[5]
[4] See Grote, "Plato," ii. 585, on Philebus.
[5] Or, "made the happiest answer."
Soc. Do I understand you to ask me whether I know anything good for
fever?
No (he replied), that is not my question.
Soc. Then for inflammation of the eyes?
Aristip. No, nor yet that.
Soc. Well then, for hunger?
Aristip. No, nor yet for hunger.
Well, but (answered Socrates) if you ask me whether I know of any good
thing which is good for nothing, I neither know of it nor want to
know.
And when Aristippus, returning to the charge, asked him "if he knew of
any thing beautiful,"
He answered: Yes, many things.
Aristip. Are they all like each other?
Soc. On the contrary, they are often as unlike as possible.
How then (he asked) can that be beautiful which is unlike the
beautiful?
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